Here’s an exchanged with u/Superb-Intention sparked by this article from a Utah Newspaper on the homeless problem in Salt Lake City. It’s just a normie head-butting a radical libertarian on government and jurisdictional claims. Enjoy!
Skyler: The homelessness problem is a failure of government at all levels. They have failed veterans, they have failed society with its war on drugs, and they have failed families with its war on poverty, and they have failed cities with zoning and minimum wage regulations. The only way the homeless problem can be fixed is to scale back government at all levels and allow society to do what societies are supposed to do to take care of one another, through entry level work, charities, churches, mutual aid groups, et cetera.
The only way the homeless problem can be fixed is to scale back government at all levels and allow society to do what societies are supposed to do to take care of one another, through entry level work, charities, churches, mutual aid groups, et cetera.
You had me up until this part. Scaling back the government will just allow people like those quoted in the article to further exploit vulnerable populations. Systemic problems require systemic solutions.
Skyler: I disagree. Government has failed, and more government is not likely to succeed, not without disastrous unintended consequences like the homeless problem. Hiring someone for less than minimum wage, when they have no other options, is not exploitation, it’s necessary for economic growth, personal and societal.
Superb-Intention: I disagree. What you say might be true of small communities, but as they mature and become more complex we need more government programs to ensure the working class is able to continue to thrive. Doing away with the minimum wage won’t address the homeless problem. Housing first programs will.
And Government has failed primarily due to political forces that lead to social programs being under funded to the point of failure, then people pointing to that and saying “See?? Spending money on social programs doesn’t work!” when evidence shows time and time again that social programs are worth the investment.
Skyler: Government can’t fund anything. It has to first steal property from peaceful people to do it, and those people don’t like being stolen from, hence the underfunding of their programs. Garbage in, garbage out. I disagree that politicians even want to solve these problems. It’s more likely the problems get them elected and re-elected, perverse incentives.
Superb-Intention: “Taxation is theft” is such a childish viewpoint. Running an advanced society costs money. It’s not theft, it’s our duty as members of the community to contribute. The government can’t fund anything because we haven’t been taxing the rich since Raegan and people are still waiting for the wealth to trickle down.
Skyler: “childish” is not an argument. Neither is “society costs money” and “our duty to contribute”. Do you have any evidence that the rules created by the people who call themselves “government” apply to you or to me? Any evidence, at all?
And “trickle-down” was a strawman: https://www.aier.org/article/the-return-of-the-trickle-down-ruse/
Do you have any evidence that the rules created by the people who call themselves “government” apply to you or to me? Any evidence, at all?
What are you even going on about here? Is this some BS Sovereign Citizen talking point? Do you have any evidence that laws and regulations passed by the government of a society in which you are a member don’t apply to you? Any evidence at all?
Society absolutely does cost money, and it absolutely is our duty to contribute as members of this society. Just saying “that’s not an argument” doesn’t change the fact that infrastructure and social programs are important elements of advanced societies that require government spending to be effective.
Do you have any evidence that laws and regulations passed by the government of a society in which you are a member don’t apply to you?
Isn’t the burden of proof on the party making the accusation that somebody has violated their rules and owe them money? Why are you flipping the burden of proof and presuming guilt, instead of innocence?
it absolutely is our duty to contribute as members of this society
This is a pretty extraordinary claim. What evidence do you have to support this claim as true?
Superb-Intention: Oh, you know, just the countless court cases that have upheld the constitutionality of a government collecting taxes and passing laws that people in a jurisdiction must abide by. And the fact that if you don’t pay your taxes you will be jailed. Literally every government does this. Don’t try to act like I’m the one flipping the burden of proof or making extraordinary claims.
I’m genuinely curious as to what you are basing this argument off of.
Oh, you know, just the countless court cases that have upheld the constitutionality of a government collecting taxes and passing laws that people in a jurisdiction must abide by.
Are you saying that their code and constitution apply because their courts say they apply? Isn’t that arbitrary circular reasoning?
And the fact that if you don’t pay your taxes you will be jailed.
Are you saying that because they’re willing to use violence against me, that means their codes and constitution apply? Isn’t that just aggression?
I’m genuinely curious as to what you are basing this argument off of.
I’m not making the argument, but I’ve requested these facts from a lot of people (including bureaucrats and prosecutors), none of which could offer me any thing that wasn’t arbitrary or violent. One must conclude by the lack of evidence that governments do not, in fact, have jurisdiction over anyone.
Superb-Intention: Haha ahhh okay, you’re not making an argument because you have none to make. That link was a fun thought experiment just like imagining what a communist utopia might be like. Let me know how challenging jurisdiction goes for you, my guy.
Enjoy your fantasy world!
Skyler: No, I don’t, and I’m not the one accusing anybody of violating my code or constitution, either. I’m not the one making unsupported assumptions about jurisdiction. If you want to make an allegation, then bring your evidence, otherwise you’re a tyrant who just wants to tyrannize.
Personally, challenging jurisdiction here in Salt Lake got a significant amount reduced from an alleged code violation for renting my house on Airbnb. I would have gone further instead of conceding but the ordeal was taking a toll on my mental health. See the details here: https://skylerjcollins.com/slcvsjc2019
Superb-Intention: Where did I accuse you of anything? I’m speaking broadly about the importance of taxation and regulation in advanced societies. You aren’t making a coherent point at all, just jumping from random AnCap/Sovereign Citizen talking point to another while accusing me of accusing you of something.
But congrats on reducing your code violation! That is clear proof that “the rules created by the people who call themselves “government” [don’t] apply to you or to me.” Now let’s see how well it goes when you refuse to pay any taxes.
Just don’t be a coward about it – show the strength of your conviction by making it known to the government that you are refusing to pay and make sure they know your reasoning. You’ve apparently figured out some secret knowledge that nobody else knows. That must be empowering, but think of the impact you could have if more people found out that they, too, could fight the back when they learn about how you successfully beat the IRS with facts and logic!
Where did I accuse you of anything?
You didn’t, I used the royal “you”, etc. You did claim the state has authority (jurisdiction), which is where this started, and then you failed to provide any evidence proving that claim as true.
Now let’s see how well it goes when you refuse to pay any taxes.
I haven’t submitted a return since 2015, and will never submit a return again, state or Federal. My 2015 Federal return was audited, and I did stand my ground. As of right now, they claim I owe them money, and I’m refusing to pay (because they’ve failed to prove it). That debt will be expunged after 10 years, by their own rules. Here’s a little thing I wrote on it in 2017: https://everything-voluntary.com/ongoing-battle-leviathan
Superb-Intention: Lol no way this will ever catch up to you!
Skyler: I’ve made my peace with it. My family will be taken care of. In the mean time, I’m a free white man.